Developer Meetings/20071103

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To Attend

  • Meeting Time: 20071103 1700 UTC
  • Timezone Information: www.timeanddate.com
  • Meeting Protocol: XMPP (Jabber) Conference
  • Meeting Location: k-3d@conference.jabber.org

Agenda

  1. Action items followup.
  2. Video followup: hosting issues.
  3. Proposal: create an "announce" mailing list.
  4. Proposal: Switch to trac (or something else) for bug-tracking. The sf.net system has a lot of visual noise and is slow for surfing. Besides it lacks of some features. (like global rss)
    • http://trac.edgewall.org/ (seems that can be a bit slow because its based on python
    • Other suggestion?
    • Integrating trac with the current media wiki
  5. Proposal: Develop slide presentations that can be used at local LUG meetings, conferences, etc.
  6. Proposal: Post releases to a concrete list of venues.
  7. Proposal: Improve website.
  8. Proposal: Ensure everyone has t-shirts / caps / stuff.
    • This might be funded with our SoC money. Tshead 12:00, 20 Oct 2007 (MDT)
  9. Proposal: Attend open-source conferences.
    • This might be funded with our SoC money. Tshead 12:00, 20 Oct 2007 (MDT)
  10. Proposal: Attend SIGGRAPH.
    • This might be funded with our SoC money. Tshead 12:00, 20 Oct 2007 (MDT)
  11. Proposal: Developer sprints.
  12. Proposal: Bug-days.
    • We should discuss how to handle bugs? Maybe create a method for processing them and distribute them between developers?

Action Items

  • [Shead] - Writeup some details on where we stand with respect to Win32 platform support.
  • [Shead] - Work on embedding flash video in the wiki, using Joe's server to host the video, and a FOSS flash player.
  • [Duo] - Create a sample trac server for evaluation by the group.
  • [All] - Writeup your proposed-ideal collection of forums/mailing lists.

Discussion

(11:08:34) Tim Shead: Shall we get going?
(11:08:40) joe: ok
(11:08:55) Anders Stenberg: I think I'll mostly be a spectator, but I'll shout if there is anything I've got an opinion in ;)
(11:09:36) Tim Shead: First things first, wanted to thank you guys for pressing-on without me last week - I really appreciate it that things can get done when I'm not around ... thanks!
(11:09:51) joaduo: your welcome
(11:10:21) joaduo: we like doing so :D
(11:10:34) Tim Shead: So I thought we'd go through last week's items quickly ...
(11:10:47) Tim Shead: Joaquin, did I answer your mesh reset question?
(11:10:57) joaduo: i think not
(11:11:13) Tim Shead: The email I sent last night didn't work?
(11:12:15) joaduo left the room.
(11:12:27) Tim Shead: Maybe the ML would be a better forum for technical issues ... let's move on :)
(11:12:51) Tim Shead: There was a conversation regarding Win9X support ... what was the consensus?
(11:13:07) joe: kill it
(11:13:18) joe: unless its ultra easy to keep
(11:13:23) joe: which it sounds like its not\
(11:13:42) Tim Shead: Thing is - there isn't any Win32 API that we're using that is particular to any version (I think)
(11:13:57) Tim Shead: Is there some known issue?
(11:14:38) joe: then I wouldn't go out of the way to drop it
(11:15:03) joe: maybe warn users downloading it that its best run on xp or vista
(11:15:12) joe: but that it may work on older versions
(11:15:30) joe: a number of other apps do that
(11:15:45) joe: older versions of windows aren't even supported by microsoft anymore
(11:15:48) Anders Stenberg: As far as I know MS themselves stopped supporting 9x ages ago.
(11:15:49) Tim Shead: Yeah, my thought is that it would be a little pretentious to claim that we "support" *any* particular version of Windows.
(11:15:53) Anders Stenberg: Exactly
(11:16:20) Tim Shead: I'm going to suggest that we might try to collect evidence through a wiki page.
(11:16:34) Tim Shead: On what works / what doesn't
(11:16:44) joe: well at the moment we should just call ms windows support experimental
(11:16:55) Tim Shead: But again, "dropping" support implies that we had support to begin with ;)
(11:17:27) joe: its also about our intentions though
(11:18:21) joe: whether or not we plan to support certain versions of windows
(11:18:29) Tim Shead: Well, I think that this highlights a major difference between proprietary and free software - companies can pick-and-choose what they want to support, but with free software it's up to the volunteers.
(11:18:34) joe: I'd say we should target xp and god forbid... vista
(11:18:57) Tim Shead: If there aren't any developers on a given platform, it won't be supported.
(11:19:16) Tim Shead: Anyway, I'll take an action item to do some type of writeup on Windoze support.
(11:19:30) Tim Shead: Try to explain where we're at, which is reasonable.
(11:19:37) joe: yeah
(11:20:01) Tim Shead: So moving along - the screencasts look awesome, really got me pumped-up.
(11:20:49) Tim Shead: Which leads me to the problem of hosting ... we're going to have to find a way to host the videos, which are necessarily higher quality/bandwidth than a YouTube can provide.  Any thoughts?
(11:21:19) Tim Shead: The k-3d.com/k-3d.org server isn't going to cut-it.
(11:21:42) Anders Stenberg: What quality constraints are there on google video? The same as youtube?
(11:21:49) joe: I have a dreamhost account, its pretty big
(11:21:57) joe: I can pretty much host everything
(11:22:09) joe: including streaming video
(11:22:27) joe: that was my original plan for all the videos anyway
(11:22:30) Tim Shead: I'm not familiar with the service ... is that an ISP?  A video-specific thing?
(11:22:41) joe: its just a web hosting service
(11:22:55) joe: I can run any number of domains, unlimited
(11:23:10) Tim Shead: OK, so we could put-up a .flv file, and then link to it from the wiki?
(11:23:17) joe: its just the cost of registration, but if you already have something registered I can host for free
(11:23:21) joe: yes, you can do that
(11:23:34) joe: what is k-3d.org running off of right now
(11:23:35) joe: ?
(11:23:47) Tim Shead: My DSL line :)
(11:23:54) joe: ha
(11:24:05) joe: that's terrible. You should just use my account
(11:24:15) joe: its fast and huge
(11:24:29) joe: maybe we could continue to run the wiki from your site if its hard to move
(11:24:42) Tim Shead: So, the suggestion came up that I do some developer-oriented videos, which was interesting ... would I be able to upload content directly?
(11:25:04) joe: but I'd say eventually we should get the main page, etc onto my server, along with any big bandwidth stuff
(11:25:07) joaduo [joaduo@jwchat.org/jwchat] entered the room.
(11:25:09) joe: yes, you could upload easily
(11:25:11) joaduo: all right
(11:25:16) joe: I'll make you a login right now
(11:25:17) joaduo: back
(11:25:25) Tim Shead: Technical problem?
(11:25:26) joaduo: the client
(11:27:12) joaduo: so... i guess i missed something
(11:27:43) Tim Shead: Cool!  So it sounds like we've got a hosting solution.  The last item is to work-out embedding the videos in the wiki - from the samples I posted you can see that Camtasia provides their own player, but we really need to find something that's FOSS for our videos - maybe something that we can "brand" K-3D.
(11:28:56) Tim Shead: Quiet crowd this morning ...
(11:29:10) Tim Shead: OK, let's move on to a new proposal: an "announce" mailing list.
(11:29:41) Tim Shead: The pros: it might be attractive to users who are likely to be put-off by the current "developers" list.
(11:29:49) joe: Tim, do you want a embeded flash player?
(11:30:06) Tim Shead: Yep, that's what I was talking about - I'm assuming that there are lots.
(11:30:33) joaduo: bart is not here, i think he used a Foss one
(11:30:37) joaduo: when converting
(11:31:03) joe: Check my website celestinestudios.com and then click on the gallery tab
(11:31:13) Tim Shead: I would assume so ... I ran across one that's free for non-commercial use, but I'd prefer true FOSS.
(11:31:21) joaduo: tim, i read your mail, thanks for the reply
(11:31:44) joe: Well mine is flash, so its automatically not really FOSS, but I think that other than flash, it is GPL licensed
(11:31:46) joaduo: how do i disconnect two nodes?
(11:32:33) joaduo: tim, dont worry, i ask on the mailing list
(11:33:23) Tim Shead: You mean the player is GPL?
(11:33:39) centipede901 left the room.
(11:34:42) joaduo: so...
(11:34:55) Tim Shead: Yeah, OK - thoughts on creating some new mailing lists?
(11:34:57) joe: yes, player is GPL
(11:35:08) joe: other than the fact its flash based\
(11:35:16) joe: for which there's no source code obviously
(11:35:20) joaduo: well, i guess is to keep in touch normal users
(11:35:29) joaduo: the ml
(11:35:43) Tim Shead: Understood.
(11:36:18) joaduo: it would be great to invite people on the forum, so that the would know about the new features
(11:36:37) Tim Shead: You mean an "announce" mailing list?
(11:36:51) joaduo: together with the more frequent releases i think would be useful
(11:36:53) joaduo: yes
(11:36:57) joaduo: announce ml
(11:37:09) Tim Shead: What do you guys think about a "users" mailing list?
(11:37:25) joaduo: that could be also
(11:37:29) centipede901 [centipede901@gmail.com/HomeA0CA97EC] entered the room.
(11:37:34) joaduo: but i guess is another target
(11:37:50) Anders Stenberg: I personally think a well used forum is somewhat better than MLs
(11:37:54) joaduo: my idea is to keep users informed, not newbies questions
(11:37:59) Tim Shead: As background, my thought in past years was that we shouldn't split the mailing list until it reached a "critical mass" of activity - I thought one busy ML was better than several quiet lists.
(11:38:19) joaduo: tim, i agree to... 
(11:38:19) Tim Shead: So the question in my mind is whether we've reached that point, or whether it was a bad idea to begin with
(11:38:29) Anders Stenberg: It's a bigger step to actually sign up on a ML, than just check out a forum regularily. At least to me. :)
(11:38:32) joaduo: but i was thinking of a "news letter"
(11:39:04) joe: an rss feed could work too
(11:39:09) joaduo: i guess forums are good for asking questions...
(11:39:17) joaduo: also rss could be
(11:39:20) centipede901 left the room.
(11:39:21) joe: most people are pretty reluctant to give out their email address for spam reasons
(11:39:26) Tim Shead: We do have the forums provided by sourceforge, so just to clarify - this isn't an "either-or" type of decision.
(11:39:30) Anders Stenberg: Forums work pretty well for release notices etc as well
(11:39:46) Anders Stenberg: Like RakNet or Bullet does, for example
(11:39:52) joe: tim, I just attempted to send you login information... please give it a shot
(11:40:28) joaduo: Anders Stenberg: yes, but i guess the user has to have a active role
(11:40:49) joaduo: having a ml makes that the user dont have to check every time
(11:41:21) joaduo: we could make a announce forum
(11:41:25) joaduo: anyway
(11:41:27) Anders Stenberg: joaduo: indeed. But... Well... At least I personally think joining a ML is a bigger "commitment", and something I only do for something I'm really interested in
(11:41:29) Tim Shead: I think it fair to say that some people prefer forums, others prefer mailing lists.
(11:41:36) Anders Stenberg: yes :)
(11:41:48) joaduo: :)
(11:41:56) Tim Shead: We support both, we're going to continue to support both, so it's just a question of how they are organized/used.
(11:42:13) Anders Stenberg: True
(11:42:16) joaduo: well, we could also make an announce forum, and users can susbcribe to be mailed
(11:43:05) joaduo: i want to announce new features and releases... 
(11:43:16) Tim Shead: Here's the assignment for next-week: everyone go to next week's meeting page (already created) and write-down their ideal organization for forums / mailing lists.
(11:43:21) joaduo: but, no user can post
(11:43:56) joaduo: ok
(11:44:11) Tim Shead: Then we'll talk about the best option. Again, not an either-or choice - organize forums *and* mailing lists.
(11:44:37) joaduo: ok, next topic?
(11:44:46) Tim Shead: So let's move-on to the proposal for a new bug-tracker.
(11:45:08) Tim Shead: I don't have a problem with the current one, so I will turn it over to Joaquin to make a case :)
(11:45:32) joaduo: my main objection is that its slow
(11:45:44) joaduo: and trac is more user friendly
(11:46:00) Anders Stenberg: Trac ties in with SVN very well, as well
(11:46:23) joaduo: for example if a user wants to keep track of bugs there is no way to be mailed
(11:46:43) joaduo: for example i have to check the website from time to time
(11:46:49) joe: yes, that sucks
(11:46:51) joaduo: and is slow :(
(11:47:07) Tim Shead: The SF tracker sends email notification, all you have to do is sign-up.
(11:47:21) Tim Shead: I get email when bugs are posted/changed.
(11:47:26) joaduo: i could find
(11:47:47) joaduo: in fact i asked on the k3d ml
(11:47:48) joe: I like Joaquin's idea. I hate the SF tracker. I agree that it is hard for beginners to use.
(11:48:07) joe: and slow as all hell
(11:49:31) joaduo: tim, i think you get mailed because you are registered as developer on k3d sf.net project
(11:49:42) joaduo: i guess not even rss
(11:49:52) joaduo: for normal users...
(11:50:35) Tim Shead: There is an RSS feed for K-3D which includes the tracker - http://sourceforge.net/export/rss2_projsummary.php?group_id=11113
(11:50:41) Anders Dahnielson [anders.dahnielson@gmail.com/Gaim31EA7256] entered the room.
(11:51:15) joaduo: yes
(11:51:19) joaduo: im subcribed
(11:51:28) joaduo: but is a summary :)
(11:52:03) joaduo: anyway... do we follow on the ML about this topic?
(11:52:19) Tim Shead: Who will host and administer the hypothetical new tracker?  I say this because I do not wish to take on additional administrative duties.
(11:52:23) centipede901 [centipede901@gmail.com/Home67564586] entered the room.
(11:52:40) joaduo: ok, i will
(11:52:52) joaduo: and we see how it goes...
(11:53:24) Tim Shead: You will ... ?
(11:53:37) joaduo: i will administer it...
(11:53:44) joaduo: :)
(11:54:39) centipede901: sorry for being late folks. Didn't think you'd start early
(11:54:43) joaduo: i will make some test on my own server, the we see where we put
(11:55:09) joaduo: hi...centipede
(11:55:24) joaduo: where we put it
(11:55:40) joaduo: Tim Shead: ?
(11:55:51) Anders Dahnielson: @centipede: I think you too forgot about the daylight time saving change ;-)
(11:56:05) Tim Shead: Sounds good - don't put too much sweat into it, we might want to get some opinions on other trackers - I like mantis myself :)
(11:56:20) joaduo: ok...
(11:57:47) Tim Shead: So we're coming-up on an hour, and I think we've got a fair number of items to work on for next week.
(11:58:20) Tim Shead: I'd like to call it a day - sorry we missed you, centipede :)
(11:58:40) Tim Shead: Any last-minute thoughts?
(11:59:24) joaduo: yes
(11:59:34) joaduo: about how we handle bugs
(11:59:47) Tim Shead: BTW, I'll mention that I made reasonable progress on the node visibility work while I was traveling last week.
(11:59:49) joaduo: i dont know if you want as to divide the woek
(11:59:53) joaduo: work
(12:00:10) Tim Shead: You mean the work of fixing bugs?
(12:00:19) joaduo: yes
(12:00:29) joaduo: maybe i can specialize on certian bugs
(12:00:37) joaduo: bart on other
(12:00:39) joaduo: so on
(12:00:40) Tim Shead: Up-to-this-point, it's been open-season on bugs.
(12:00:54) joaduo: haa
(12:01:02) joe: Hey, once last thing:
(12:01:14) Tim Shead: I don't know about specialization, but one of the proposals that's been at the bottom of the agenda has been "bug days", which is a Gentoo idea.
(12:01:22) joe: My friend JC tried to test k3d mac osx on his intel based mac
(12:01:45) Tim Shead: The notion being that the developers pick one day to work on nothing but bugs ... 
(12:01:51) joaduo: i dont know how it works, ill check.. so we see this next meeting?
(12:01:59) Tim Shead: Sure.
(12:02:03) Anders Stenberg: A note that's outside the scope of this meeting is that I'd really like to work some on getting a base for proper texturing (UV based) into K-3D. I started investigating some time ago, but I then got totally blocked (and still am) by not beeing able to build on win32 lately.
(12:02:05) joe: and it installs, but when he tried to run it, "the icon just bounces once in the tray" and then it stops and nothing happens
(12:02:07) joaduo: ah, ok
(12:02:32) centipede901: ah, here's the culprit: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=10&day=27&year=2007&hour=17&min=0&sec=0&p1=0 <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=10&day=27&year=2007&hour=17&min=0&sec=0&p1=0>.
(12:02:35) Tim Shead: Joe: have him open the log and see what it says.
(12:02:48) Tim Shead: Anders: MSVC or MinGW?
(12:02:50) joe: where is the log?
(12:02:59) Tim Shead: Apple provides a special tool for it.
(12:03:06) Anders Stenberg: MSVC primarily (due to a very very weird issue with libc++ and VC).
(12:03:12) Anders Stenberg: I also tried Eclipse
(12:03:20) Tim Shead: It's called "Console"
(12:03:22) Anders Stenberg: But ran into some trouble (that's probably fixable)
(12:03:45) joe: do you just mean the terminal?
(12:03:51) joe: where would we cd into?
(12:04:08) joaduo: Anders: i think it would be great to have UV
(12:04:10) Tim Shead: Nope, there is an application called "Console" that displays the output of programs run from an icon.
(12:04:21) Anders Stenberg: (Don't remember right now what my problems with mingw/eclipse were though. But if someone currently know how to build K-3D on win32, I might want some help eventually.)
(12:04:22) joaduo: mapping
(12:04:28) Tim Shead: Anders: as I recall, there was a problem with template specialization - I suggested a fix, did you get a chance to try it?
(12:04:43) joe: is it a stock install, or is it something that needs to be downloaded
(12:04:44) joe: ?
(12:04:52) Tim Shead: Joe: Part of the OS.
(12:04:57) joe: great
(12:05:00) Anders Dahnielson: @centipede: yes it's funny, according to the wiki this meeting should take place on the 27th of October
(12:05:31) Anders Stenberg: Tim: Yes, that was one of the problems. The suggested fix with static asserts didn't really work either, since it apparantly tries to instantiate some methods even though they're not explicitly accessed.
(12:05:34) joaduo: oops
(12:05:39) joaduo: copy and paste anders
(12:05:53) joaduo: ill change it :D
(12:05:57) Anders Stenberg: Tim: Just bogus default implementations work though, but they're a bit dangerous
(12:06:00) joe: JC just realized he needs X11 for Mac, so he's looking for it.
(12:06:07) Tim Shead: Joe: /Applications/Utilities/Console
(12:07:07) Anders Stenberg: Tim: The problem I'm having now is that the "make-module-proxy" (or whatever the name is) app asserts on some iterator corruption in SC++L, which from some googling seems to be some weird issue that happens in rare cases with VC but no one knows how to work around really
(12:07:32) joaduo: anders, although you say that the gnu way doesnt work anyway. that should be also fixed, isnt it?
(12:07:33) Tim Shead: Anders: could you post a link?
(12:07:46) Anders Stenberg: Hang on
(12:08:16) Anders Stenberg: joaduo: what do you mean?
(12:08:53) joaduo: i mean, you said that it doesnt work with eclipse... that is the gnu compiler way, isnt it?
(12:09:25) Anders Stenberg: Tim: http://www.nabble.com/creating-custom-signal-with-Visual-Studio-2005-Pro-t3686518.html
(12:09:58) Anders Stenberg: That's someone having the same problem in some other case. (I found a couple of more references to the problem, but no solution.)
(12:10:10) Anders Stenberg: joaduo: yeah that's with gcc for windows (mingw)
(12:10:34) Anders Stenberg: joaduo: but that was probably just my fault that it didn't work. Didn't give it much time
(12:11:01) Anders Stenberg: One problem with mingw though is that it's _horribly_ slow, for some reason.
(12:12:13) joaduo: http://www.virtualbox.org/ you could use a virtualization software if you also want to test on linux
(12:12:33) joaduo: but i think it would be great to work seamlessly on windows
(12:12:47) Tim Shead: So Anders, let's take this offline - I'm going to look at the link you sent, writeup some notes at the MSVC build page in the wiki, and do some work on the specialization issue.
(12:12:54) joaduo: but its a temporarly work around :D, also for making tests
(12:13:09) Tim Shead: Let's call it a day, gang ...
(12:13:25) joaduo: ok....
(12:13:47) joe: ok
(12:13:50) joe: have a good week
(12:14:08) joaduo: the same to you :)
(12:14:10) Tim Shead: Take it easy ;)
(12:14:19) Anders Stenberg: See you all
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