Developer Meetings/20071110

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To Attend

  • Meeting Time: 20071110 1700 UTC
  • Timezone Information: www.timeanddate.com
  • Meeting Protocol: XMPP (Jabber) Conference
  • Meeting Location: k-3d@conference.jabber.org

Agenda

  1. Action-item followup.
  2. Proposal: new Forum/Mailing List Organization:
    • Forums
      • Users
    • Mailing Lists
      • k3d-development (existing)
      • k3d-commits (existing)
      • k3d-announce
  3. Proposal: Bug-days.
    • We should discuss how to handle bugs? Maybe create a method for processing them and distribute them between developers?
  4. Mystery Item [Shead]

Action Items

  • Remove memory.h for a more stable windows binary (Bart)
  • Build a new win32 binary pre-release (Tim)
  • Reconfigure forums and mailing lists (Tim)
  • Create SoC 2008 project page (Tim)
  • Develop SoC 2008 project ideas (All)

Discussion

(10:45:39) bart: OK, let's get started on platform support
(10:46:01) bart: Tim wrote an entry into the FAQ, which prety much says it all
(10:46:46) bart: More specifically, the WinXP binaries will be a lot more stable once we kick out the memory cache, so I propose we make a new test build once that is done.
(10:48:29) bart: I'll add removing memory.h as action item for me, and putting a new binary on the site as action item for Tim. OK?
(10:49:03) joaduo: ok
(10:49:28) bart: Second, Vista doesn't work well at all. The viewport remains blank until you pan, and even then updates very slowly. This problem requires further looking into.
(10:49:54) joaduo: are testing on a virtual machine or on a real machine?
(10:49:58) bart: Frankly, I don't know where to get started
(10:50:01) joaduo: are you*
(10:50:02) bart: A real machine
(10:50:40) bart: Did anyone else test in Vista? I only have one installation available.
(10:50:47) joaduo: maybe is the way k3d uses opengl
(10:51:08) joaduo: for example comparing with blender i don't get any opengl text on k3d
(10:51:20) joaduo: and i get it on blender
(10:51:32) bart: what platform?
(10:51:35) joaduo: linux
(10:51:41) bart: Ubuntu?
(10:51:50) joaduo: i know is a problem with the nvidia drivers too
(10:51:51) joaduo: ubuntu
(10:51:57) bart: ah, that is a font issue
(10:56:54) bart: I'll hae to figure out again what the problem is, and post a fix
(10:56:55) joaduo: but, also is the driver, not only ubuntu
(10:56:57) joaduo: hi tim
(10:56:57) Anders Dahnielson: welcome, long lost leader ;-)
(10:57:05) bart: hi Tim
(10:57:17) bart: Sorry, we got started ;)
(10:57:45) Tim Shead: Sounds good - what's up?
(10:58:01) joaduo: talking about vista and opengl issues
(10:58:07) Tim Shead: Good luck :)
(10:58:42) bart: Tim, I've saved the two action items we had so far.. I propose you continue the list?
(10:59:21) bart: Yes, the XP problem seems solved with the removal of memory.h, but I'm afraid the Vista problem is worse
(11:00:08) Tim Shead: Okey dokey ... did everyone think about how they'd like to organize the forums / mailing lists?  I've put a straw-man proposal in the meeting page.
(11:00:46) bart: I think we can stick with one mailing list, and 2 forums: 1 discussion forum, and one announce forum
(11:01:01) joaduo: i agree
(11:01:21) bart: but the forums should be phpbb or some other "flashy" system, not the spartan sourceforge system
(11:01:29) Tim Shead: Joaquin, I belive you were the one proposing an announce ML ... change of heart?
(11:01:47) joaduo: the announce forum could be used as a "mailing list" if the user is registered to receive new post
(11:02:12) joaduo: i wanted something that the user could use to be in touch
(11:02:28) joaduo: the furom is good, because it has mail report
(11:03:45) Tim Shead: Anyone else?
(11:03:45) joaduo: help = users in the case of forum
(11:03:52) bart: Could we place a phpbb or similar system on Joe's server?
(11:04:09) Tim Shead: Depends on Joe.
(11:04:21) joaduo: i agree a faster web would be great
(11:04:22) bart: I think phpbb (or something more modern/popular I may have missed) is a lot more attractive and familiar to users
(11:05:13) bart: I'd be willing to do the system administration if no-one else wants to, but I nominate Joaquin as moderator ;)
(11:05:15) Tim Shead: Hosting is an orthogonal issue.  Let's focus on deciding what the right functionality is, and then worry about making it happen.
(11:06:38) joaduo: i don't know if developers forum is necessary
(11:07:10) joaduo: maybe open discussion would do the same, isnt it?
(11:07:19) Tim Shead: So, your thought is that the forums are for users and the mailing list is for developers?
(11:07:35) joaduo: generally
(11:07:39) Tim Shead: The current forums can be renamed.
(11:07:41) bart: My proposal is: The current mailing list, kept as-is. One forum for users, to discuss everything K-3D related including support questions. One read-only forum where we post announcements
(11:08:16) Tim Shead: I think a forum for announcements doesn't make sense - you have to keep watching the forum.
(11:08:38) joaduo: no, you can subscript
(11:08:43) joaduo: as in a ML
(11:08:46) bart: Well, as Joaquin said, you can subscribe to get mail, or RSS, or whtever
(11:08:51) joaduo: register*
(11:09:20) Tim Shead: In which case it's no different than a an ML
(11:09:23) joaduo: the one that doesnt have are the trackers
(11:09:48) joaduo: yes
(11:09:54) joaduo: is more or less the same
(11:09:55) bart: Tim, yes, but it emiminates the need to keep both an announce list and forum
(11:10:09) joaduo: and if there is no "post privileges" is the same
(11:10:11) bart left the room.
(11:10:39) joaduo: seems bart is having problems?
(11:11:12) joaduo: tim, for me is the same, somewhere where the users could be informed automatically
(11:11:17) Tim Shead: As I think about it, I'm no longer advocating an announce forum at all.  The point of announcements is to notify people of something, which is what an ML does - you subscribe because you want to be notified when something happens.
(11:11:51) Tim Shead: OK, so what I'm suggesting is:
(11:12:08) Tim Shead: Forums - Users; ML: k3d-development, k3d-commits, k3d-announce
(11:12:35) Tim Shead: The current distinction between "Help" and "Open Discussion" in the forums never made much sense.
(11:12:56) bart [barche@gmail.com/Kopete] entered the room.
(11:13:17) bart: hmm, seem to have lost connection
(11:13:23) joaduo: :)
(11:13:50) bart: Tim, agreed
(11:14:09) Tim Shead: So, I've updated the proposal in the meeting page.  
(11:14:15) bart: It would still be good to post important announcements both in the news section of the website, and on the forum
(11:14:42) bart: and I still firmly believe a more attractive forum software is needed
(11:15:04) Tim Shead: Set aside the software issue for the moment.
(11:15:04) joaduo: well, we can make some test on other software
(11:15:08) Tim Shead: You are proposing:
(11:15:28) Tim Shead: Forums - Users, Announce; ML: k3d-development, k3d-commits, k3d-announce
(11:15:41) bart: yes
(11:15:54) joaduo: ok
(11:16:02) Tim Shead: Anybody that can't live with that?
(11:16:20) Tim Shead: Done.
(11:16:37) Tim Shead: So, there's an action item that was skipped - Joaquin, how's the bug-tracker demo coming?
(11:16:55) joaduo: not good
(11:17:19) joaduo: sot
(11:17:24) joaduo: so, for next week
(11:17:39) joaduo: anyway, i am having exams this month
(11:17:41) Tim Shead: Is it a problem with the software, or a problem with time :)
(11:17:50) joaduo: time....
(11:18:15) joaduo: but i thought also we would discuss about other soft
(11:18:22) Tim Shead: And herein lies a good, general observation.
(11:18:28) joaduo: i will try to test it...
(11:18:55) Tim Shead: We've been through lots of permutations of hosting over the years.
(11:19:02) centipede901: joaduo: I'm used to trac. I can do the setup-ing
(11:19:15) centipede901: (on my own server, that is)
(11:19:21) joaduo: ok
(11:19:25) joaduo: would be great
(11:19:26) Tim Shead: I know that SF isn't sexy, but it gets the job done, it requires no effort on my part, and it's there when I need it.
(11:19:36) joaduo: so we make it faster
(11:19:54) centipede901: SF sucks. No community will ever live around an SF hosted project
(11:19:57) Tim Shead: We can't have things hosted all over the place.
(11:20:07) joaduo: there are some other hosting for free software that embed trac
(11:20:21) Tim Shead: You guys underestimate the value of SF.
(11:20:25) bart: We should discuss things with Joe, about using his hosting for forum and bug tracker
(11:20:37) Tim Shead: We're going to have to watch bandwidth carefully with Joe ... 
(11:20:40) joaduo: i like the Bandwidth for downloading, but the site is slow
(11:20:43) bart: SF SVN and mailing list are great, as far as I'm concerned
(11:20:45) Tim Shead: hosting videos may be a problem.
(11:21:23) bart: Another option is to see if we can use the SoC money to pay for hosting
(11:21:26) joaduo: i would use the hosting for the files, ML and SVN
(11:21:31) centipede901: trac will only run if you can tamper with apache configuration. Python backend
(11:21:48) Tim Shead: With SF, we can upload what we want, we don't have to worry about bandwidth, and - I say it again for emphasis - it doesn't use my time for administrivia.
(11:22:23) Anders Dahnielson: I agree with Tim
(11:22:30) joaduo: tim: does it have a good spam filter?
(11:22:36) Tim Shead: It?
(11:23:12) joaduo: sf?
(11:23:30) joaduo: i was on novell forge, and spam sucks there
(11:23:35) bart: I think we should make a distinction between what we host... Downloads, SVN and mailing lists all work great in my opinion. The tracker I have no opinion about, but the forums downright suck compared to what's out there
(11:23:55) bart: talking about sf in the above
(11:24:28) Tim Shead: Joaquin: judge for yourself.  I don't get spam in my inbox through the lists.
(11:24:36) joaduo: thats good
(11:24:38) centipede901: the wiki.. is that on your machine, Tim?
(11:24:45) Tim Shead: centipede: yes
(11:24:55) joe [joe@celestinestudios.com/Home] entered the room.
(11:25:03) bart: hi Joe!
(11:25:04) centipede901: joe: perfect timing
(11:25:16) bart: speaking of the devil... ;)
(11:26:02) centipede901: Tim: Do you have anything else running off SF?
(11:26:09) joe: hi
(11:26:37) Tim Shead: Aqsis, GtkGlExt, XTrkCad-fork
(11:26:52) bart: joe: we were talking about hosting
(11:26:58) joe: cool
(11:27:10) joe: i heard tim got a video up on my site
(11:27:14) joe: that's great
(11:27:40) Tim Shead: Point is - an application has to provide some *significant* value to be worth the pain of hunting-down a host, administration, etc.
(11:27:54) Tim Shead: I'm not convinced that a slicker bug-tracker or forum is worth it.
(11:28:04) centipede901: forum *is*
(11:28:20) joaduo: what if we use one from other hosting service?
(11:28:23) bart: I think so too, yes. The young people love them ;)
(11:28:37) bart: forums, that is
(11:28:44) Tim Shead: So show me the money - set something up, and then propose it to the group.
(11:28:44) joe: my host i think has a one click install forum
(11:29:17) bart: So the discussion is, host the forum from Joe's site, or something else?
(11:29:18) joaduo: ok, ill investigate
(11:29:55) joaduo: we do the mentioned changes to the ML and the forum
(11:30:14) joaduo: and we talk when we have tested something
(11:30:24) Tim Shead: Yes.
(11:30:26) joaduo: next topic?
(11:30:31) Tim Shead: Bug-days.
(11:30:42) Tim Shead: This idea comes from the Gentoo Linux distribution.
(11:30:47) centipede901: joe, I'd rather be silent before pulling in another favour from a dude I regularly use when it comes to hosting. joaduo: I can set up a test environment, but you must do the evaluation and stuff
(11:31:14) joaduo: okeis :d
(11:31:16) joaduo: :D
(11:31:22) Tim Shead: The idea is to pick a date, and have all of the developers put their time in on bugs for one day.
(11:31:31) bart: Good idea
(11:31:37) joaduo: would be good
(11:31:46) Tim Shead: I tend to ignore bugs for long periods of time, and then knock them out all at once, so  it fits my way of working.
(11:31:51) joaduo: specially to learn how to do it :)
(11:32:18) Tim Shead: So, let's plan one.
(11:32:27) Tim Shead: I assume the weekend would be best.
(11:32:32) joaduo: ok
(11:32:41) bart: Are they accompanied with a chat?
(11:32:53) bart: Also, how do we determine who attacks what?
(11:32:53) Tim Shead: Yeah, the point is that with many eyes, all bugs are shallow.
(11:33:23) joaduo: something that has to do with this
(11:33:31) Tim Shead: I think that everybody should just pick something, maybe post what they're working on, and then not overthink it ;)
(11:33:38) bart: OK
(11:33:43) joaduo: i don't know where the code is more unstable
(11:34:03) joaduo: i guess there are "zones" that are less tested, isnt it?
(11:34:51) Tim Shead: I wouldn't look at it from that perspective - you should just pick a bug and let it lead you to the source, rather than the other way around.
(11:34:51) bart: There are always little things you see, but ignore when running the program
(11:34:52) joaduo: i don't know if you tim can tell us where should we test more, or... just let them come?
(11:35:30) Tim Shead: In an ideal world, we would have verifiable test coverage of 100% of the sources.
(11:35:45) Tim Shead: But that isn't a bug-fixing activity, that's a regression-test activity.
(11:36:06) joaduo: ok
(11:36:08) Tim Shead: I've never gotten the code coverage working in the dashboard, that's on the todo list.
(11:36:13) bart: I think at this point, you can just use K-3D for a while, and then run across something it shouldn't do, and work from there
(11:36:31) joaduo: ok
(11:36:52) Tim Shead: Also, the point of bug-day is to close-out bugs that are in the tracker.  So you start there.
(11:37:14) bart: OK
(11:37:28) Tim Shead: I will float a date to the mailing-list, I need to check my schedule.
(11:37:42) joaduo: ok
(11:37:48) Tim Shead: Now on to the Mystery Item for this week's agenda.
(11:37:49) joaduo: next topic?
(11:37:51) joaduo: ok
(11:37:52) bart: OK, I need to check with the boss :)
(11:38:04) bart: Sundays work best for me, in general
(11:38:05) joaduo: your girl?
(11:38:11) bart: joa, yep :)
(11:38:14) Tim Shead: Bart: exactly, we want to get maximum participation.
(11:38:45) Tim Shead: So, I received the following in my inbox last week:
(11:39:05) joaduo: chachán...
(11:39:32) Tim Shead: Hello,

My name is Dmitry, I present Avaon company - PC distribution company and
service provider for PC vendors.

We are interested to bundle our workstations with your K-3D solution. So,
there are several questions, regarding this process:

1. Do we have opportunity to bundle our workstations with your software?
2. Do you have opportunity to rebrand your solution to Avaon? Of course,
under conditions of saving information about original developer. We just
sell under Avaon brand, so we would like all complex (PC + software) be
under one brand.
3. Do you have Russian localization of interface and Help? If not, we are
ready to make translations for you for free.

We are ready to donate your project after our user feedback.

I'm waiting for your reply.

With best regards,
Dmitry


(11:40:30) joaduo: seems good
(11:40:51) Tim Shead: My response:
(11:40:54) Tim Shead:       From:    Timothy M. Shead <tshead@k-3d.com (mailto:%22Timothy%20M.%20Shead%22%20%3ctshead@k-3d.com%3e)>     To:    dmitry@avaon.ru     Subject:    Re: K-3D bundling with our home PCs     Date:    Tue, 06 Nov 2007 21:52:45 -0700       
      On Tue, 2007-11-06 at 17:55 +0300, dmitry@avaon.ru wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> My name is Dmitry, I present Avaon company - PC distribution company and
> service provider for PC vendors.
> 
> We are interested to bundle our workstations with your K-3D solution. So,
> there are several questions, regarding this process:
> 
> 1. Do we have opportunity to bundle our workstations with your software?

K-3D is licensed under the GNU General Public License, Version 2.  The
license gives you certain rights, such as the right to redistribute
K-3D, but you must also accept certain responsibilities - for example,
you must provide users with copies of the license and the source code,
so that they may exercise their rights in-turn.  You may not modify or
alter the license in any way.  See the COPYING file included with the
K-3D source code for details.

> 2. Do you have opportunity to rebrand your solution to Avaon? Of course,
> under conditions of saving information about original developer. We just
> sell under Avaon brand, so we would like all complex (PC + software) be
> under one brand.

K-3D is copyrighted software, and enjoys all of the protections that
that entails.  You may make modifications to the software and distribute
those modifications, but you must distribute the modified source code
and license those modifications under the same terms as the rest of the
program.  You may not modify or alter any of the copyrights in the
source code, nor any copyright notices displayed by the program.

> 3. Do you have Russian localization of interface and Help? If not, we are
> ready to make translations for you for free.

K-3D uses GNU gettext for internationalization.  We do not have a
Russian localization, so that would be a welcome contribution.

Regards,
Timothy M. Shead



(11:41:32) Tim Shead: I'm mainly bringing this up to keep you guys in the loop.
(11:41:46) Tim Shead: His response:
(11:42:44) Tim Shead: Hello, Timothy.

Thanks for your prompt answer.

Actually, I would like to ask you about following scheme of contribution.

Could you build a rebranded version of K-3D for us? Now we have no
developers for this project, but would like to bundle K-3D in
November-December. This rebranding will cover only program name, some
graphic elements probably and our support team contacts in About. We will
save information about developers and will work due GPL of course.

From our side we could make a Russian translation and documentation for
K-3D. We could make an English FAQ based on our home PCs customers too.

Of course, we could make donation to K-3D team after finishing this process.

What do you think?


(11:43:38) joe: cool
(11:44:04) Tim Shead: Not so much.
(11:44:10) bart: I think rebranding is no problem under GPL, right?
(11:44:31) joe: changing a couple icons, splash screen etc wouldn't be too tough
(11:44:42) Tim Shead: You guys are way to anxious to give up your work.
(11:45:01) centipede901: hehe
(11:45:14) bart: OK :)
(11:45:16) joaduo: the thing is the rebranding thing?
(11:45:18) Tim Shead: Yes, under the GPL these guys can make whatever modifications they want, so long as they maintain the license.
(11:45:20) joe: basically, that's just a downstream project, like ubuntu is to debian
(11:45:33) joe: change a couple things and rebrand
(11:45:41) Tim Shead: Ubuntu doesn't call it "Ubuntu-3D"
(11:45:59) Tim Shead: They don't claim Apache is "Ubuntu-Web"
(11:46:01) centipede901: Bon Echo
(11:46:02) joaduo: i think should be "K-3D Avaon Edition"
(11:46:02) Tim Shead: or anything like that.
(11:46:03) joe: but they do change some of their names, when a name is confusing, they do change them
(11:46:19) bart: I don't see what we have to do, however? Why don't they just go in and rebrand it themselves?
(11:46:23) joaduo: or could be*
(11:46:50) Tim Shead: Although the license allows it, rebranding Free Software makes no sense.
(11:46:59) Tim Shead: You simply fracture the community.
(11:47:03) bart: I agree there :)
(11:47:19) Tim Shead: Someone who is using "Avaon-3D" doesn't know that there is an extensive wiki, for example.
(11:47:24) Tim Shead: Or a mailing list, etc.
(11:47:48) joaduo: as is say we could keep K-3D name and make a Avaon Edition, isn't it?
(11:48:05) Tim Shead: How would it differ?
(11:48:05) joaduo: what about that?
(11:48:13) joe: there must be a way to let Avaon users know that the Avaon version is based on K3D. Even if its not in the name.
(11:48:25) joaduo: just like there a photoshop limited edition
(11:48:30) joe: Just put "Based on K3D" or something in there
(11:48:33) Tim Shead: Again, what would the Avaon version be?
(11:48:51) Tim Shead: There's no reason to reduce functionality, you can get the real thing for free.
(11:49:06) joaduo: yes, i didnt mean that
(11:49:48) joaduo: i mean, the idea is to adapt K-3D to their packages, but no making another K-3D: so it would be an adapted K-3D
(11:49:49) bart: Basically, the Avaon version would be the latest version of K-3D at that point, with the words "Avaon Edition" tacked on :)
(11:50:13) Tim Shead: If they want to do that, they can, I see no reason to do it for them.
(11:50:21) joaduo: well
(11:50:21) bart: Indeed
(11:50:23) joaduo: money
(11:50:41) joaduo: so we put a price, they contribute on translating
(11:51:00) joaduo: they have a Avaon Edition
(11:51:31) joe: yes, money is the only reason
(11:51:42) joe: how much money would be the determining factor
(11:51:48) joe: so find out how much
(11:51:56) joaduo: i don't guess they will give too much money
(11:51:57) joe: and if it itsn't worth it, don't do t
(11:52:00) Anders Dahnielson: Yes, it seems indeed pointless. If I understand it correctly they ask for persmission to do something they could do without permission (as long as they foloow the GPL). I guess it would be foolish to bless it since it fracture the community, as Tim pointed out, when we're scrambling to trying to build it up.
(11:52:33) Anders Dahnielson: s/it up/one up/g
(11:52:50) Tim Shead: You guys are assuming that "K-3D Avaon Edition" is acceptable to them, maybe it is, maybe it isn't.
(11:53:11) joaduo: well, i guess that should be the correct term...
(11:53:21) joaduo: is a K-3D adapted for them...
(11:53:34) Tim Shead: Here's what I will be doing.
(11:53:41) joe: its only worth it if you have an agreement/contract that states what successful completion would be.
(11:53:56) Tim Shead: I am going to make the case to them that rebranding doesn't make sense.
(11:54:24) Tim Shead: It isn't in their best interest, because they then take-on support for "their" product, when users could come to use for support.
(11:54:30) Tim Shead: They also lose all of the documentation.
(11:54:38) Tim Shead: "us"
(11:54:57) bart: Sounds fair
(11:55:38) Tim Shead: I'm not going to suggest that they rebrand it themselves, yes, it's part of the license, but I don't have to encourage them.
(11:55:51) Tim Shead: Out-and-out rebranding is off the table.
(11:55:54) joaduo: so, if what they want is not to loose integration, adding "avaon edition" or whatever to the splash screen should do it, isnt it?
(11:56:25) Tim Shead: They don't need us to do that.
(11:56:39) joaduo: yes, at least we could bless that
(11:56:42) joaduo: :)
(11:56:59) joaduo: making friends is not bad :D
(11:57:26) Anders Dahnielson: Yes, but you're not supposed to take candy from strangers.
(11:57:40) joaduo: well...
(11:57:41) centipede901: lol
(11:57:51) Tim Shead: More apropos: these guys would like to take years of free work, put their name on it, and throw us a bone.
(11:57:56) Tim Shead: That's not friendship.
(11:58:52) joaduo: yes
(11:59:14) bart: OK, I agree whith Tim's planned action
(11:59:27) Tim Shead: In the past, I'd have just said "no"
(11:59:45) Tim Shead: I'm going to try to be more diplomatic, and show them that their plan actually isn't in their best interest.
(11:59:53) joaduo: ok
(12:00:17) joaduo: but, i don't get whats wrong about adding the avaon edition :D
(12:00:27) Tim Shead: So that's it.  Any other items on the agenda?
(12:00:46) bart: I had thought about SoC 2008
(12:00:56) bart: didn't get to putting it on the wiki
(12:00:57) Tim Shead: Sure ... go ahead.
(12:01:16) bart: Basically, I would like everyone to think up ideas for the next meeting
(12:01:32) Tim Shead: You mean project ideas?
(12:01:37) bart: Yes
(12:01:54) bart: But there are a few lessons learned from this year, of course
(12:02:06) Tim Shead: You should probably go over them for the group.
(12:02:27) bart: Projects should be modular, i.e. preferably consist of lots of small modules rather than one big module
(12:02:47) joe: that's a really good idea
(12:03:06) Tim Shead: Yeah, the bottom-line is that we basically have no usable results at this point.
(12:03:22) bart: They should also not be too complex
(12:03:32) Tim Shead: We were over-ambitious, and both projects were "all or nothing" ... they either worked or not.
(12:03:41) bart: Highlty scientific projects are unlikely to produce a good end-result
(12:03:54) bart: Also, they have to have a large appeal to users
(12:04:08) Tim Shead: If a project consists of many small plugins, they can be "25%" complete and still provide uable functionality.
(12:04:19) bart: Having users give feedback means extra motivation for the student, also for him to maintain his code post-SoC
(12:04:43) Tim Shead: Yep, that means that everyone here should be building the SoC code and providing feedback.
(12:04:53) Tim Shead: We did a lousy job of motivation this year ;)
(12:05:35) bart: I think a variation of the architecture modeling proposal, for example, would be a good candidate
(12:05:40) joaduo: yes, i thought we would have had more activity on the ML about this
(12:06:10) bart: The problem with the monolithic projects this year, was that there was no easy way to test things
(12:06:31) Tim Shead: Working on parallel/threaded computation is only getting more critical.  We need to be able to take advantage of multi-core architectures.
(12:07:12) Tim Shead: It also provides a wide variety of plugins that can be written to take advantage of it, from embarrassingly-parallel plugins like "ScalePoints" to more complicated ones.
(12:07:24) talk2me [yogibear108@jabber.org/Total Communicator] entered the room.
(12:07:26) Tim Shead: There's a nice gradual curve there from easy-to-complex.
(12:07:51) bart: OK. I propose everyone thi
(12:08:03) talk2me left the room.
(12:08:09) bart: ..nks about project ideas by next week
(12:08:19) Tim Shead: Sounds good.
(12:08:33) joaduo: ok
(12:08:41) bart: keeping in mind the guidelines: Manageable Complexity, Multiple plugins and high appeal to users
(12:09:12) bart: We should get the word out about SoC ASAP after we have new proposals
(12:09:25) Tim Shead: Agreed.
(12:09:35) bart: Even if we're not sure we're selected, giving students time to consider us can only bee good
(12:09:42) joaduo: ok, do we set a date?
(12:10:00) Tim Shead: Huh?
(12:10:17) joaduo: i mean, for having ideas
(12:10:26) bart: The date is when we have a good SoC 2008 page, based on the proposals that should start coming in by next week
(12:10:37) Tim Shead: Yes, I will get the 2008 page started.
(12:11:11) joaduo: ok
(12:11:38) Tim Shead: So I think it's a meeting ...
(12:11:39) joaduo: what i mean "a month before" the final submission, for example
(12:12:06) bart: Also, for SOC 2008 we will require a small coding test from all candidates. Ideas on what that could be are welcome, too
(12:12:30) Tim Shead: I'm not sure about that one.
(12:12:46) Tim Shead: Was coding-ability a problem this year?
(12:12:47) joaduo: could be a proposal for students, not a requiremente
(12:13:23) bart: Tim, It wasn't, but hearing from the other projects in SoC we learned it can be... Why take the risk?
(12:14:09) Tim Shead: I didn't catch the session I think you're referring to.  What was the problem?
(12:14:55) bart: Well, I don't have a concrete example, but SilverStripe did a PHP coding test, and they said it was very helpful to measure both student knowledge and motivation.
(12:15:30) bart: Some students went out of their way to provide something beyond what was required, completely ploshing their entance test, while others didn't bother to do the test...
(12:15:51) Tim Shead: Plosh?
(12:15:57) joaduo: polishing?
(12:15:58) bart: polish :)
(12:16:44) bart: hmm, i have to go soon... I'm at a friend's house here, supposed to be drinking coffe now ;)
(12:16:54) joaduo: ok
(12:16:56) Tim Shead: Depending on how we manage it, such a test could be a good thing or could be off-putting to talented people.
(12:16:56) joaduo: see ya
(12:17:04) Tim Shead: Anyway, we'll talk about it more.
(12:17:07) Tim Shead: Thanks everyone!
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